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Morbius wrote:
There is much to that statement that is mysterious to me ....
Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God stands in the congregation of the mighty; He judges among the gods.
Psa 82:2 How long will you judge unjustly, And show partiality to the wicked? Selah
Psa 82:3 Defend the poor and fatherless; Do justice to the afflicted and needy.
Psa 82:4 Deliver the poor and needy; Free them from the hand of the wicked.
Psa 82:5 They do not know, nor do they understand; They walk about in darkness; All the foundations of the earth are unstable.
Psa 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.
Psa 82:7 But you shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes."
Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; For You shall inherit all nations.
It appears that, although they are called "gods" in verses 82:1 and 82:6, they still "judge unjustly" and "show partiality to the wicked" verse 82:2, and shall "die like men" and "fall like one of the princes". Jesus appears to define "gods" in John 10:35 above as those "to whom the word of God came" (the Scriptures).
So it appears that even "children of the Most High" (verse 82:6) can be sorely lacking in God's eyes.
I could not agree more that it is "mysterious" and do not expect to find a firm Resolution of something that is necessarily Fluid and Alive. If everyone is "god" how then can God judge the world? Rom 3:6. Everyone is either "god" or doing the WILL of "god" or he ain't no god - man's goings are of the Lord, Prov 20:24, all things created for his pleasure, the Most High Ruleth in the kingdom of men, Dan 4:17, 25 and 5:21 (so much for "satan" being the "ruler of this world").
The beginning and end of the game are different from the middle, is all I can conclude. I was alive (godly?) once without the law, but the law came, sin (a sense of incompetence) revived and I died. Oh who will deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7. Sacrifice and offering thou wouldst not but a body hast thou prepared me, Heb 10:5. Satan can't cast out Satan but god can cast out god - can and does - but with his fingers crossed - in the body, absent from the Lord - for we must needs die and are as water spilt on the ground that cannot be gathered up again, neither doth God respect any person, yet doth he devise means that his Banished be not Banished, nice trick that - same word in Hebrew, II Sam 14:14.
I think before the Heir can inherit the Family Business, he must do time in the trenches - all the way down to the bottom of the bottomless pit - and then grow up like a tender shoot against impossible odds - a baby is a promise of the man to come, but he's not The Man until he has lived and undergone experiences.
Suffering the indignities thrust upon us by our bodily experiences without despair, "patiently" - is the highest praise/honor one can give to God - I Pet 2 - if when you do well and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is thankworthy - for even hereunto are ye called. Everyone has his breaking point though - Job was sorry he had been born, Job 3:1,2. Christ cries out, at the acme of his suffering, "my god my god why hast thou forsaken me".
Of course it's not all suffering. There are times of refreshing too. Waxing and waning. But that actually creates MORE stress, as it's hard to be sure whether one is loved or hated. Lovable or hateful.
(It just came to me that real sin - irrational cruelty - is when we "crack" under stress. When we fail to "take it patiently".)
Another relevant passage, Phil 2:4-9 - being in the "form of God"????? But choosing to think he is not. A wise choice, as there are other contenders for the throne around - if you choose to exercise your divine rights, so will they - and it's bloody hell when gods war with one another. (Ever been married?) But - when gods defer politely to one another - look not every man on his own things but also on the things of others - life, even mortal life, can be quite heavenly. He sinks to the bottom, Phil 2:8, "death on a cross", to me that means being pierced to his absolute essence and being determined to be contemptible - and takes it like a man so to speak - and then a BIG BOUNCE, "highly exalted". Our light afflictions are not worthy to be compared with the glory that shall be revealed in us.
Arise shine for thy light is come. But every day the sun goes down again. And comes up the next morning. It gets confusing.
I just wanted to point out that the things these "gods" in Ps 82 are short on are the very things that Job was best at before his humiliation, per ch 29 v. 12-16. Also similar to two passages where the allegedly godly are in fact ungodly, Is 58:2-7 and Mal 2:7-10.
If you are talking Religion (I believe the word actually means Bondage), the most basic premise is the sharp division between God and Man. Outside of religion (and I am grateful to have been "called out" people don't play king of the mountain, they just work together to solve problems without arguing about who does mom love best - the old Smothers brothers routine seems awfully "deep" to me - the Middle East, Ishmael and Isaac have been at it for millenia, who keeps the law the best, last man standing of course. Unfortunately I can hardly express what I think without quoting a bible verse and that is virtually "playing king of the mountain" - trying to beat people down to bow to my point of view - hard very hard to break habits of a lifetime. I don't even know how to communicate in any other way - to just talk without trying to approach a Firm Conclusion (where my view prevails!).
I guess in science that would be all right - they all want to achieve something practical and true. "God" might be the same kind of subject but he's too important for us to be cool and objective about it - talking about Him is talking about Us. One more verse that speaks to me in that regard - no man can find out the work God maketh from the beginning to the end - he hath set the world in their heart. Eccl 3:11. It's not the same as "God so loved the world" - that's Order. He is to love it, we are not. The World in our Heart is a Vanishing Point of Eternity - like the powers of ten up and down, infinity. I need order and predictability, but I don't love it. It's boring, but safe.
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More from my odd Christian message board - it's easier to think when you have someone to "talk back" though. Maybe why God likes us. Morbius wrote:
What "law" did God "break" by resurrecting Lazarus? m.
And I quote "the scripture cannot be broken" by Jesus referring to a fairly obscure verse in Psalms. (But there are no obscure verses, like a plate of glass, a single flaw and it's all "cracked".) Thus, the following must be truths that cannot be discounted when working out one's Understanding.
Eccl 9:5,6 - For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
II Sam 12:23, David speaking of his dead son: But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
And now the lengthy elaboration that I cannot resist adding: I submit that the Resurrection represented by Christ is strictly a spiritual thing. He says men pass FROM DEATH TO LIFE. And he's talking to people walking around breathing who think they are "alive". (It is appointed to man Once to Die and then the Judgment, for as in Adam All Died, All our days are passed away in The Wrath, Heb 9:27, I Cor 15:22, Ps 90:9 - but we are not appointed to wrath, go figure, I Thess 5:9. I must figure - how can I spend all my days in wrath and not be appointed to it? I must be a mixed bag, old man and new.) Every mortal man is er "mortal" - dead in trespasses and sins - in that he does not understand his "Portion" and thus misses what has been set aside Peculiarly for HIM. He intrudes on the allotments of other men (trespass - moving boundaries) and inflicts hurt either unknowingly or with the misunderstanding that God is pleased when men hurt one another. (He has ordained that it happens, but he "has no pleasure in the death of the wicked", I called you wily but you are not in his league nor am I. But we still have to play ball with "the one with whom we have to do", Heb 4:13 - it's an unfair matchup but every man has to play it. Luckily for us, I think he's fond of us.) When a person believes in the Value of Men - long lay the world in sin and error pining then he appeared and the soul felt its worth - That All Men should Honor the Son even as they Honor the Father - he that Heareth my word and Believeth on him that sent me, Hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but Is Passed from Death unto Life. John 5:22-24. But we find out reading further that Honoring the Son is a matter of Honoring All Men, I Pet 2:17. He that despiseth, despiseth not man but God, I Thess 4:8. As much as ye have done it to the least of these my brothers, ye have done it unto me, Matt 25:40. (He tasted death for every man and is not ashamed to call them brothers, Heb 2:9,11 - we may be ashamed of one another but he is not ashamed of us. None of us.) The er "unsaved" - the Dead in Christ - he's Lord of the Dead and Lord of the Living Rom 14:9 - like all of us, they see the problems, they feel the pain and Respond as they are not physically dead - evidence of physical life is "responsive to stimuli". But the Response is to Go Finger the Culprit and Crucify Him - and then dust your hands off and waltz away with satisfaction as if you accomplished something. Sort of like how the political process works. But the "unsaved" do it individually too - always playing the Blame Game. (Blasphemy, in English the root word is "blame".) The Living would never solve a problem by Crucifying a Fellow. They would focus on the problem and keep the communication flowing among all involved parties with respect until a satisfactory resolution is reached, an easy matter among members who respect and care about one another. But in a Group - "goy" or Gentile just means a Group, there cannot be reasonable behavior, men function like sheep indeed, looking quickly to see what everyone else is doing, just watch the stock market. Reinhold Neibuhr wrote a book about it, Moral Man and Immoral Society. For one thing, a society does not have a face. Immorality is difficult when one man looks directly at the face of another - as in water face answers to face, so the heart of man to man, Prov 27:19. Even Hitler could not bear to see the faces, he never went to the camps. Focus on the "magic version" prevents consideration of the Real - but I suppose the Real is something that only happens on the individual level - between Man and God - and between Men who recognize they are the children of God, spirits bearing witness with one another. In the World we must ever have the basest of men to rule over us - as is ordained by the Most High, Dan 4:17,25. I don't think God ever breaks laws. I think the true meaning of Scripture is different from the literal meaning. (An old fundie preacher I once heard actually said "the bible doesn't mean what it says, it means what it means. Amen.) But I don't think there could be any "church" or "group" that could "teach" such things - it has to be worked out individually by each person (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling as it says), as his own God-Given Individual Understanding makes such things intelligible to HIM. (Until you reach Maturity, you depend on others to tell you "what we believe". I smile every time I remember my old pastor saying "no no we don't believe that." As if someone else can tell you what you believe.) My version of the "Holy Spirit": If you have received that "annointing" (Christ?) you don't need to be taught any longer, the Lord will guide you continually, I John 2:27, Is 58:11, one LOVES His Appearing because one is Not Ashamed, knowing one has acted "in obedience". In the New Covenant no man teaches another, Heb 8, every man recognizes that every man has his own "teacher", and to his own master he stands or falls, yea he shall be holden up, Rom 14:4. People who respect one another do not set about to "instruct" one another. Although they may try to explain their Peculiar Thinking. The great flaw in my understanding, to me, is that it has no social utility - nothing to preach to tell people what to do. And we cannot live without social engagement. And a lot of human suffering is due to group behaviors being out of whack. A group has to follow a leader. Those who rise to positions of leadership tend to be ego driven, it's just not easy. Democracy is a great idea but difficult given the sheeplike behavior of The Group. All I know to do is to be as faithful as I can individually and leave the rest to God - and his so-numerous Children: The Lord Gave the WORD and Great was the Company of Them that Published It, Ps 68:11.
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LaylaII wrote:
If I use my definition of "sinful soul" I can back you up. Sin is "not knowing" as I see it - "ye do err not knowing the scriptures" Jesus told the Pharisees. If they KNEW they would not have crucified..all the ways of a man are CLEAN in his own eyes - sin is just not understanding.
Hi Shun... quick thought. There is sin (the verb) done in ignorance and there is willful sin (verb - sinning in full knowledge). Jesus also told the Pharisees if they were blind they would have no sin, but because they said "we see" their sin remained.
Peace
Excellent response Layla - if only we could pithily and objectively point out apparent holes in one another's various visions - without offence - does that sound impossible or WHAT - but you did it. However surprise surprise I still agree with myself - but hey I GOTTA VERSE - (and forgive me if you can, I CANNOT be quick, so sorry but either I must say it all or nothing...)
First of all, he did not say they were not blind, but that they said "we see", i.e. they thought they were right. They inflicted hurt on another - that's the result of sin - if no one is being hurt it ain't sin (however that defense for prostition etc is weak as plenty of people get hurt) - KNOWING they were hurting that other and believing they were RIGHT to do it. In such cases their sin remains.
Akin to "I was alive once without the law, the law came, sin revived and I died". It's this idea of "what is right" that makes us cruel to one another - Law, if you will. The Law, intended to nurture life, works out as a killer of life, see Mal 2. Yet the answer as Christ pointed out is not to abolish the law - do we really want to live without law and order? It's the greatest suffering there is! What we want - is for all the members of society to be Grown Up - so it will be Safe for them to act Freely. Free grownups are respectful of one another. Immature people who are "lackeys" for Law and Order - how the priests seem in Mal 2 to me - who put the Law above Life - and thus throw out the baby with the bathwater - are BAD.
HOWEVER - it takes time (experience? Passion of the Christ?) for members of society to grow up. And they don't all grow up at the same time. The poor (in understanding?) are always around. So we have Law. Pharisees = Lawyers. The law is not made for a righteous man, he doesn't need it - but for the young and foolish - and/or the but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, I Tim 1:9. Whew what a verse! I could run on several paragraphs about each kind of sinner - unholy to me is a person without his identity - he's not "set apart", he's a Tool of pushy people. Profane is "worldly", totally yielded to Peer Pressure, whatever the Group says - but I digress.
Thank you for - what's Magi's word - "activating" me - as you have helped me think this through and work out a verse that hurt me for a long time.
Another surprising verse no one knows - or cares about - Heb 12:25 - the "church of the firstborn" consists of the Spirits of Just Men Made Perfect. Men born with a love of What is Right just as they are born to Walk Upright, it's the Thumbprint of Divinity, that is - but working out "right" with so many players, finding the best outcomes without killing/hurting - we don't know how - until the game is over - I hope - against hope - that all this accumulated experience is put to use somewhere - although I'm not sure I'd volunteer to do this again.
The usual religious value, ready self-abnegation - "greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friend" - hmmm Job was the best, the Perfect Man, and extolled in the NT also - you don't see him laying down his life for his "friends", God forbid that I should justify YOU, till I DIE I will not remove mine Integrity From Me. Job 27:5. I think the reconciliation of the two verses is that - when you really love the other you are entrusting your Worth (integrity?) to the care of the Other - believing they will carry on in your stead - and so although you lay down your physical life, by faith you believe your spiritual life is carried on in the one you lay down for. As Jonathan yielded to David. As every parent "dies" for the sake of their children. AND AS CHRIST DIED FOR EVERY MAN - so we could carry on his Worth, individually - it takes a LOT of us to show Who He Is. The Lord gave the Word and GREAT WAS THE COMPANY of them that Published it, Ps 68:11.
But, back to your point, about Wilfull Sin being Unforgiven. Jesus said, when you have a problem with an Adversary, best work it out whilst you are "in the way" with him because if you let him take you to Court, the judge will throw you in the slammer till you are bled white Matt 5:25. (I wonder whose translation that is, lol.) It's funny, I work for a lawyer - and although he likes to try cases as he really shines before a jury, nowadays both sides try to "resolve the case" outside of trial - Justice looks lovely from afar but after you get in bed with her she's NASTY (ask Ammon about his sister Tamar - means Palm Tree, symbol of perfect Rectitude - in the line of Christ too - Judah bore those twins by a Tamar, Breach and Dawn, it's Breach (Phares) that Christ descends from - well he did say he came to "bring division" - cell division, the basic life process..
If you go ahead and enforce The Law on another without mercy (See the Merchant of Venice what a great play!) be prepared for the consequences. And now the problem verse that used to scare me, that scared my son (I have a little scrap of paper where he wrote the three refs down), that actually scared John Bunyan - one of the famous Three Scary Verses of Hebrews:
If we Sin (inflict hurt) Willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (we know what we are doing and how it will feel to that other person - I remember watching a six year old laughing gleefully as she beat the tar out of another six year old in a game and seeing the hurt on his face - she did not realize how he felt, how much it hurt - I also saw a thirty year old do that in a bridge game a few times - ditto - on the other hand the other thirty year old should not take a game so seriously - but I saw hurt then too - perhaps tender people should not play games) THERE REMAINETH NO MORE SACRIFICE FOR SINS, BUT
A Certain Fearful Looking for of Judgment and Fiery Indignation, Which shall Devour those Adversaries. Heb 10:26-27.
Being deliberately cruel to another person because you think it's RIGHT (and always this is the case, "all the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes", Prov 16:2 - is equated with TRODDING UNDERFOOT THE SON OF GOD, v. 29. And sets you up for "recompense" at the hand of God, v. 30.
If you can't be nice from a tender heart, then be nice from fear, but BE NICE, FOR YOUR OWN SAKE. They shall not Hurt nor Destroy in All my Holy Mountain, Is 11:9. To give None Offence, I Cor 10:32.
Now - that is not to say we must not have Powers that Be who Enforce the Law - if you have been appointed to sit on a bench, JUDGE AWAY. The rules of Society are a different matter from the Rules of the Heart. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's - but unto God - a Pure Heart. Rom 13 is all about the necessity of an orderly system to "enforce the law". But the new covenant is about members of the body of christ being grown up with one another. Just like good friends who need each other.
Layla - thank you again - and I HOPE I wasn't too offensive - "I thought I was RIGHT" lol - no wonder I have nightmares inspired by some of these posts, lol - but I enjoyed writing this very much and it helped me a lot. (After yesterday's post about every person being an expression of God's Pleasure (well that is how Rev 4:11 sounds!) I had the most horrific nightmare unspeakable really - of people being VERY bad - and all you have to do is click "news" on Google to see it's "true" - but I think if you could really find out all about any particular crime - we would see there are lots of extenuating circumstances - in the same situation with the same resources we might have done the same - we would have BEEN the same person, in that case.) | | |
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I guess I'm an unbeliever. I am that I am. I can't believe what I don't believe even if I "must". (This was written for an odd Christian message board but I want to save it here. And it will really mess up the heads of anyone who read yesterday's post, lol. I started another blog with Blogger and will not post any of my "spiritual meanderings" there as I would like to speak to sane people now and then SOMEWHERE and this still is like Kryptonite to Superman for them. But I cannot leave it alone dammit.)
This morning I read John 11 (Lazarus) with my husband. (His idea that we read a chapter a day, started in Psalms then he wanted to switch to John). Not too long ago I told him I had broken fellowship with people I loved because they believed in "magic" and I don't. (Must be like Jack Sprat and his wife one can eat no fat one can eat no lean they lick the platter clean.) To me, "magic" (ok "miracle") blasphemes I Am That I Am, he cannot deny himself. I don't think he can break his own rules, in the land of the material girls he has to obey his own physical laws just like the rest of us. The spiritual realm is a whole other matter, and we are not without access to it in the physical world - the Mind can go ALL OVER THE PLACE. It can create its own place for that matter. After all we have been through and survived, my husband and I nearly broke up over that - so I will not bring it up with him again. But I'm willing to risk alienation from you guys. If you have something to change my thinking, BRING IT.
I admit that John 11 is pretty straight forward, Lazarus dies, stays in the tomb four days, so he must "stink", Jesus weeps at the grief of his loved ones, and then says come out come out and out he comes. But I do not believe any physical dead body is ever restored to physical life in this material world. I do not believe any physical body ever walked on physical water. I do not believe anyone ever grew seven pounds of hair in a year. (Absalom, EVERY YEAR - it was so heavy he had to "poll" it - and he weighed it too!) Just to name a few.
Yet I hold the Scriptures in Highest Esteem as a source of Eternal Truth. And so - if something in them CANNOT be "literally true" - the sun standing still is another good one, the Scopes Monkey Trial was all about that - then either it is WORTHLESS NONSENSE - what your average "atheist" would conclude - OR - it's a hidden message of some kind. Hidden from those not ready to receive until they are ready.
As for walking on water - in the old testament sinners are drowned in a flood. In the new testament there is no fear of floods we can walk on water. (They would drown you as a witch in the old days if you didn't sink in water.)
I don't know what to say about the Lazarus story. His name is the same as the Hebrew Eliezar. It means God's Helper. Abraham, as he got tired of waiting for his son, thought perhaps his helper Eliezar (and God's I guess) would perhaps actually be the one who would father his son. But God said no, YOU will do it.
Well - it is a pretty long shot that a 99 yr old can father a child - and let's face it IMPOSSIBLE that a 90 yr old woman could conceive. An even GREATER "magic" is Gen 20:2, Sarah is past NINETY but she is STILL SO HOT that Abraham has to LIE to save himself from men who would kill him to take her (Abimelech). (And we learn that Abraham and Sarah had the same Father but not the same Mother, v.12.)
The nice thing about a literal truth is, people can agree on it. A rose is a rose is a rose, we can write a doctrinal statement defining a rose as this red flower that grows on a thorn bush and all the people can say "amen" with a clear conscience. BUT - if you start allowing "spiritual meaning" (and old lady who used to teach a bible study I attended would wax so indignant against those who "spiritualized" the scripture - my words are Spirit said Jesus, spiritualizing the word is like wetting water if you ask me, but I guess you didn't - only the devil forces his vision on people who don't want it - *waves pitchfork*- call me what you will I am what I am and cannot be otherwise, although like God I can hide from those who would be offended at who I am. Surely thou art a god who hidest thyself, Is 45:15, and to give none offense I Cor 10:32 I have learned to hide with a clear conscience although it used to feel like lying to me. I love the truth dammit - it's the sword of truth that pierced my heart and killed me. And it's the devil in me that keeps rising from the dead daily trying again and again to LIVE. I guess it will take a wooden stake to finish me off.
What I think is - one's real Only Begotten Son that is born of those who Believe - the Father of All who Believe, Abraham, Rom 4:11 AND "the father of us all", Rom 4:16 - this son is not born until you have suffered the passion of the Christ as it were - human experience - and processed your experience in Light of the gift of Faith granted to you, Rom 12:3 - the union of your Experience and your Faith produces that Child - behold a Virgin Shall Conceive and Bear a Son, Butter and Honey shall he eat - before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good the land shall be deprived of both her kings, strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age having their senses by reason of use exercised to discern good and evilm, Heb 5:6. That Child - the Pearl of Great Price. Pictured in so many different ways in the Scripture. For Noah it was not a son, it was a BOAT - he didn't start building it until he was VERY OLD (at least five hundred) and it took him perhaps a hundred years to build it, he was 600 when the flood came. You know there is nothing in the bible to indicate that anyone laughed at him for building the boat in the middle of nowhere as you always heard in SS. But if you tell anyone about your Ark they will laugh all right. We know we ought to have fellowship with one another but the only way to manage it is to hide and dissemble.
Let love be without dissimulation. Rom 12:9. I guess that's in heaven. On earth I dissimulate because I love other people. In my mind I am as honest as I can be. One more thought about Noah - Noah found grace in the eyes of God. I see everything as "reflexive". If you love God he loves you. If you hate "god" well vice versa. If an evil heart of unbelief grows up in you where you depart from the Living God, like Israel you destroy yourself thereby, Heb 3:12, Hos 13:9 - yet there is Hope, "I will ransom them from the power of the grave, O death I will be thy plagues", v. 14. If you want appear Gracious in the eyes of God as Noah did, then put on your Rose Colored Glasses and believe in his Beauty even when all around you appears very sh*tty, as it did in Noah's day, Gen 6:11-12 - and in any day when a person looks about him without those Rose Colored Glasses. Finally brethren whatsoever things are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, good report, of any virtue, of any praise, think on those things and ignore the dung. Or as Helen Keller put it (she was blind you know) if you keep your face turned toward the sunshine you can't see the shadows.
Another Helen Keller quote, alone we can do so little, together we can do so much. But Helen, we can only unite with other people around imperfect beliefs - let's not call them "lies". Oh God it was great when I did not see the shadows. I wish Jesus would rub some mud in my eyes and make me blind again.
My final thoughts about Lazarus - when you stop listening to "instructors" God will speak to you himself, Is 58:11, I John 2:27. But be warned that it is very painful sitting at his feet. I am always interested in the meaning of the names when trying to understand something - Martha is the mistress of the house, mistress is female Master, not too different from the idea of Sarah, "she prevails". Mary is Miriam is Marah is Bitter not liking how things are unhappy sad REBELLIOUS. And Lazarus - depends on how you put "god" and "help" together but I say he's God's Helper. He dies and then by faith he is raised from the dead. And his two sisters are all right too. Anyone who never grieved at how things are, at least in his honest heart before God, is a LIAR AND A HYPOCRITE. Only Mary can give birth to the Christ Child. If you never feel pain you remain barren. Jer 5:3.
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Lifetime
